Super Smash Bros Brawl

[Stephen Stills]

I recently went to a Chinese restaurant, and all the guys working there looked like

[Snakewater]

I recently went to a Chinese restaurant, and all the guys working there looked like Sakurai.

Racism by Teatime, or conspiracy by Sakurai?

Chalk up one vote for conspiracy.  Who else but the Chinese government would want Brawl to be delayed so long and still have such bad online play?

[Revan/anakinjmt]

On a whim, I checked the Dojo today, and they now have posted the world records for each character in Target Smash and Home Run Contest. The records are current as of the end of July. Looks like Falco, R.O.B., Olimar, Toon Link, and Pit are all among the fastest, with Falco and Toon Link each having the fastest times for two levels. As for Home Run Contest...that's quite a difference in distance between Ganondorf at #1 and Luigi at #2. Ganondorf got nearly 3,000 ft. farther than Luigi. Sakurai says it's all true, but that's quite a difference in distance.

[Stephen Stills]

On a whim, I checked the Dojo today, and they now have posted the world records for each character in Target Smash and Home Run Contest. The records are current as of the end of July. Looks like Falco, R.O.B., Olimar, Toon Link, and Pit are all among the fastest, with Falco and Toon Link each having the fastest times for two levels. As for Home Run Contest...that's quite a difference in distance between Ganondorf at #1 and Luigi at #2. Ganondorf got nearly 3,000 ft. farther than Luigi. Sakurai says it's all true, but that's quite a difference in distance.

Ganondorfs are beasts


Yeah, it's co-op, but I think you get the idea.

[Dustinmyles]

Official Brawl Tier list GET.

[Burled Holiday Cabbage]

Official Brawl Tier list GET.

I know a list compiled with loads of data collected from tournaments and what-not is tough to dispute...

But about 3/4 of that list is way off.

[Alexisonfire]

Official Brawl Tier list GET.

There is never an official tier list for any game. Only opinions and general estimates.

That being said, this list doesn't seem too far off. There are several choices I find to rather.... odd. Wario, who initially is a steaming pile of dung, had had some very interesting strategies pop up over the many months, especially with his bike, but should by no means be ranked as high as he is. Lucas and Sonic are definately middle range, as they are strong characters, but have little in the way of interesting strategies. Unless I'm missing something pretty drastic about Donkey Kong, he should not be up so high. Ike I still believe to be one of the better characters in the game. Zelda is probably High, but a low high. And, of course, ROB for crap tier.

But like any list, this is just my opinion. I'm not nearly as immersed in the competitive Brawl scene as the Smashboard's finest, so I may not know what the heck I'm talking about.

[Dustinmyles]

There is never an official tier list for any game. Only opinions and general estimates.

It's based off of top tournaments. It's not meant to be a list of what characters are definitively better than others, but rather who the top players are using. It think Melee had 5 tier lists? It changes over time, that's why I think it's interesting to see who's on top right now. Think of it as a snapshot of what characters are best at this moment.



And I must disagree with your comment about ROB. His neutral air is a beast, as is his recovery. I've played a lot of ROB, and likewise played a lot of very good ROB players, and he's pretty crazy if you use him right.

[Alexisonfire]

It's based off of top tournaments. It's not meant to be a list of what characters are definitively better than others, but rather who the top players are using. It think Melee had 5 tier lists? It changes over time, that's why I think it's interesting to see who's on top right now. Think of it as a snapshot of what characters are best at this moment.

So I read, but this is merely one man (or even a group of people's) interpretations of what is the best character. A definitive ranking system is very hard to come by, because there is always some new and innovative strategy can come out of nowhere and completely change a perspective of one character. Look at Ice Climbers in Melee. They were long thought to be a low tier character and did not see much tournament play. But then a way to chain grab with ice climbers was effectively executed and, with that technique, boosted them to middle and even high (depending on, like you said, which of the many tier lists were available).

Reading it more thoroughly this time (and somehow mentioning the same example of changing a character's perception as they did.... odd.), it seems to be a little of both of our descriptions of it. Yes, it is based on the rankings and the outcome of many high end tournaments and where the current trend is, like you said. And yet the list is not using that method entirely. Just because one character tends to be winning consistently, doesn't mean its a shoe-in for top tier. It has to do with the various, uncountable aspects that make a character better than its counterparts. To say that if all other variables other than the abilities of those characters were ruled out, a top tier will beat a middle tier a majority of the time, which was what I was trying to get at.

But you have to remember, weighting of a character is not even half of it. Skill, intellect, and even a bit of luck are usually determines the winner of a match. If you think about it, if all the characters stayed the same, but all the best players in the world preferred different characters, that list would be way different. That's why I mixture of both tournament outcomes and the potential of a character is needed.

And I must disagree with your comment about ROB. His neutral air is a beast, as is his recovery. I've played a lot of ROB, and likewise played a lot of very good ROB players, and he's pretty crazy if you use him right.

It has nothing to do with ROB as a fighter. It has to do with him as a character. A character that should never have been included. And I am sticking by that.


Another note: All 5 of my "mains" are high/top tier, and yet this has no effect on how I perceive or play them. I have stuck with them because they were fun to play and best fitted my style of fighting. And that is what anyone should do.

[Dustinmyles]

So I read, but this is merely one man (or even a group of people's) interpretations of what is the best character. A definitive ranking system is very hard to come by, because there is always some new and innovative strategy can come out of nowhere and completely change a perspective of one character. Look at Ice Climbers in Melee. They were long thought to be a low tier character and did not see much tournament play. But then a way to chain grab with ice climbers was effectively executed and, with that technique, boosted them to middle and even high (depending on, like you said, which of the many tier lists were available).

They update the tier list every so often, that's what I meant with the 5 melee tier lists. When new strategies come out they readjust the lists.

I think they're more for entertainment purposes than anything.

[Alexisonfire]

They update the tier list every so often, that's what I meant with the 5 melee tier lists. When new strategies come out they readjust the lists.

I think they're more for entertainment purposes than anything.

Smashboards may be the biggest community in the Smash Bros. competitive scene, but its hardly the only one out there. Japan, for instance, had a different tier list. Fairly similar tier list, but still different. This was due to the techniques and play styles for characters had not crossed over. As popularity of the competitive scene rose and international play was possible, both lists changed.

But I digress. Yes, the list saw a few variations over the years. Again, some misinterpretation and some lack of explanation on my part.

But yes, the list will change. There will be several variations and versions. After all, Brawl's techniques that will have a wide effect like L-cancelling and Wavedashing will be found eventually, changing the whole outlook of the game.

[Revan/anakinjmt]

I spoke with a guy at Gamestop yesterday, and he said that Brawl sucked compared to Melee, and he thought that by Christmas, Brawl will cost less than Melee. Now, having not played Melee a whole lot (compared to Brawl and original Smash), and I don't remember if we talked about this or not, but does anybody else think Melee is above Brawl? I personally don't see how. I love the stages, the Final Smashes are awesome and a great addition, Subspace Emissary is a more satisfying single-player mode, and I just have more fun with Brawl. Melee always seemed too fast to me. Again, I don't recall if we talked about this yet, but considering there's 115 pages, I don't feel like going through them all.

[Stephen Stills]

I spoke with a guy at Gamestop yesterday, and he said that Brawl sucked compared to Melee, and he thought that by Christmas, Brawl will cost less than Melee. Now, having not played Melee a whole lot (compared to Brawl and original Smash), and I don't remember if we talked about this or not, but does anybody else think Melee is above Brawl? I personally don't see how. I love the stages, the Final Smashes are awesome and a great addition, Subspace Emissary is a more satisfying single-player mode, and I just have more fun with Brawl. Melee always seemed too fast to me. Again, I don't recall if we talked about this yet, but considering there's 115 pages, I don't feel like going through them all.

A lot of people say that Melee is more competitive than Brawl. These people are still whining about wavedashing being gone. My guess is that they are mad that Brawl is slightly more balanced than melee, so characters who sucked before have a fighting chance. Boo hoo.

[Dustinmyles]

A lot of people say that Melee is more competitive than Brawl. These people are still whining about wavedashing being gone. My guess is that they are mad that Brawl is slightly more balanced than melee, so characters who sucked before have a fighting chance. Boo hoo.

Exactly. I think it does have to do a bit with how much they slowed the game down, but let's wait until we start to see more advanced techniques being discovered in Brawl and decide then.  I personally think the games are about on par.  I can't stand final smashes, or most of the items, but it's still an incredibly solid game.

[Alexisonfire]

Exactly. I think it does have to do a bit with how much they slowed the game down, but let's wait until we start to see more advanced techniques being discovered in Brawl and decide then.  I personally think the games are about on par.  I can't stand final smashes, or most of the items, but it's still an incredibly solid game.

Another complaint is that, for competitive play, the amount of stages viable really took a hit. Most stages have some type of gimmick to them that is either unfair or overpowered.

Also, Tripping. Worst inclusion ever.

Personally, I prefer Brawl over Melee. I was originally one of those people who thought that Brawl, while way more accessible, didn't live up to the competitiveness of Melee. And then I went back and played it. My god. The controls in Brawl are way more fluid and a lot less frustrating. I couldn't barely play it anymore. The difference between the two is night and day. Say what you want about wavedashing and what not, but if you say the game is broken without them, you are just as bad as those who said that Melee was broken with them. If that makes sense.

I mean I'm not against people preferring the older versions, just don't say its a piece of crap because it doesn't have the advance techniques (in which half of them were glitches anyway, but whatever) that Melee had.